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Innovate LC2 Wide Band AFR Gauge and Sensor

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  • #16
    The logging function is where the value is. Hook up laptop, start log. Make a bunch of full throttle runs, partial throttle runs, and steady state runs with acceleration transients. Pay no attention to the system, pay attention to being consistent. Stop logging, go home, brew a cup of joe. Sit down, sip coffee, and review the log. That is where you can see what is going on, analyze what is going on and confirm what is going on. Plan the drive and drive the plan.

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    • #17
      Click image for larger version

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      Originally posted by poolboy View Post
      On the subject of temperature, what's the temperature required to get an accurate reading with a wide band AFR ?
      Little as I know, I have read that the temperature at the sensor is a critical ingredient for accuracy.
      The temperature at the 02 sensor does depend on exhaust heat for the "one wire" sensor. When placing the sensor can't be placed as near as needed, a three wire sensor is used and get's its operating heat from the car battery. I have the one wire Bosch sensor placed six inches down stream from the turbo. It takes quite a while to warm up is the engine is started from cold and just idles. When driven away shortly after startup, the temperature comes up to full temperature within about 1/4 mile. Temperature was taken at this time as shown in the photo attached. This temperature could conceivably get hotter, but the reading seems to show the same on the A/F monitor, in the dash.

      I tried to take a video of the monitor when going thru different engine and road speeds, to show how and when the readout changes. Unfortunately the glare coming thru the windows didn't allow it. I may try to do this again after dark.
      In short, when the reading hung around 14.5:1 most of the time, it would drop a couple of LED's when the throttle was dropped, such as during gear changes. Higher rpms and when on boost took the reading up to 13.0:1 with the particular needle and jet now in operation. Cruising, the reading stayed pretty much at 14.2:1 and didn't change during typical changes to throttle input. I give credit to the CD type of carburation used that adjusts air and fuel to throttle input. The engine will idle OK at the "ideal" Click image for larger version

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ID:	53801414/7:1 but hunts a bit for equilibrium. At 14.5:1 it is rock solid, using the two inch SU-HD8.

      Dick

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      • #18
        Only 369*F...I would have thought it would be higher but sounds like it was measured after a short run.
        I bet it goes up higher during a good run.
        Driving a 1973 TR6
        Doing ZS carb repairs
        email kencorsaw"at"aol.com

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        • #19
          According to the manual, the Bosch style sensor in my setup preheats to 700 degrees. When I start up, it does not yield a reading for about 10 seconds. I assume it’s heating up. Additionally, I believe the instructions said to put the sensor 24” from the head. I found another write up which gave me positioning in my collector.

          Ive been working on getting an old laptop running to use the logging function. In the meantime, I’ve been able to use it to verify that I have the carbs better balanced than I did previously. I also can tell that my idle is good to slightly lean, while cruise is running rich. This is giving me a pretty good plug read in the garage, but absolutely terrible mileage (you can smell how rich it is going down the road). My top end acceleration is set pretty well if not perfect.
          Last edited by oppositelocksmith; 12-01-2020, 11:55 PM.
          1973 TR6 – BRG with beige interior, custom LED lighting
          Hardtop, OD, Rollbar, 15”Koenigs
          Bored, balanced and polished motor with PI cam, hi-comp head, triple DCOE's
          Header, custom exhaust, custom alternator, e-fan
          Lowered, poly suspension, Konis and rear anti roll-bar
          www.coventrysfinest.blogspot.com

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          • #20
            Originally posted by poolboy View Post
            Only 369*F...I would have thought it would be higher but sounds like it was measured after a short run.
            I bet it goes up higher during a good run.
            Yes, it definitely would get hotter with extended runs. I was responding to your post #7 when it asks the temperature that gives an accurate reading. The A/F monitor was as shown in the one photo at 14.2:1 and the exhaust temperature was taken within a minute of that time. Long runs where the exhaust along with a hot day does not change the monitor readings when everything else is equal. There is the possibility that the turbo absorbs and radiates some of the heat out before reaching the 02 sensor, but again the monitor still reports back what I believe to be the ratio that is being combusted. I rarely have the need to "read the plugs" but on the occasion that these are pulled (as when doing a compression check) the coloring looks favorable, as all are a light tan on the center electrode. These plugs happen to now have 75,000 miles on the AutoLite brand, (for no particular reason,) but are equivalent to Champion N7, a cooler heat range and work well with the MSD ignition.

            More later on how I set up a friend's two carburetor system using one 02 sensor....

            Dick

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            • #21
              Must be some calculating going on in that gadget with all the changes in temperature at the sensor.
              With ZS carbs if you do need to alter the mixture from the middle of it's adjustment range, you only have 1/16 of an inch to play with.
              How hard can it be where you need some sort of meter, especially if the determining factor is having a look at the spark plugs ?
              Sorry to be so negative....I think everyone by knows my stance, so as far as the A/F meter topic I'll just cease and desist.
              Last edited by poolboy; 12-02-2020, 03:19 PM.
              Driving a 1973 TR6
              Doing ZS carb repairs
              email kencorsaw"at"aol.com

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by oppositelocksmith View Post
                According to the manual, the Bosch style sensor in my setup preheats to 700 degrees. When I start up, it does not yield a reading for about 10 seconds. I assume it’s heating up. Additionally, I believe the instructions said to put the sensor 24” from the head. I found another write up which gave me positioning in my collector.

                Ive been working on getting an old laptop running to use the logging function. In the meantime, I’ve been able to use it to verify that I have the carbs better balanced than I did previously. I also can tell that my idle is good to slightly lean, while cruise is running rich. This is giving me a pretty good plug read in the garage, but absolutely terrible mileage (you can smell how rich it is going down the road). My top end acceleration is set pretty well if not perfect.
                Not disputing on what the instructions read for your particular sensor, but I would think that the closer the better in locating the sensor to its heat source. Mine happens to be 8 inches down from where the (single) down pipe begins. I do know that prolonged engine idling causes the monitor to start dropping LED's, going towards lean. Running the engine at a fast idle for a bit, returns the previous reading.

                I may have missed the part about what system you are using to fuel the engine. F.I., multiple carbs of what kind, etc.

                Dick

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                • oppositelocksmith
                  oppositelocksmith commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I installed this along with an engine rebuild and a change to triple Weber side drafts which I'm now jetting.

                  Understand your thought on placement. Below is straight from the instructions with the sensor. I put mine about 6" after the first point where all pipes collect together on my header at about 10 o'clock.

                   Weld the bung at least 24 inches downstream of the exhaust port outlet
                  (after the collector), or 24 inches after the turbocharger if so equipped.
                  The bung should be welded before the X or H pipe if so equipped.

              • #23
                Wide band O2 sensors use a feed back loop along with heater circuits to do their magic. That is why you need a controller for the sensor, then of course some kinda of circuitry to generate a display. Bosch sensors are mated to particular IC chip controllers. The Ecotrons website has some good info on the actual workings of these things. A close friend has two LC-1’s we installed in his E type. When he had the carbs rebuilt, the shop said it was the easiest car to dial in the SU’s ever, because they could see and log the AFR’s. They are just another tool, like any other.

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                • #24
                  The AFR controller keeps the sensor at the correct temperature- but can't cool it -seems that's why the 24" minimum distance from the exhaust port for a modern wideband. Also, your instructions should have mentioned not to mount the sensor too far off vertical- sensor doesn't tolerate collected water very well. I mounted two bungs just to confirm that readings are the same in both pipes.

                  Click image for larger version

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                  72 TR6 Sapphire Blue/black, purchased 1988
                  Sequential Fuel injection-Megasquirt3x ECU, Sal Vespertino Supercharger Kit
                  Eaton M62:8.5psi [email protected] MAP, DuPont T5 tranny, GP2 cam, GP roller rockers, PLX AFR wideband, SPAL 16" rad. fan, air/oil separation system w Wagner PCV valve

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                  • oppositelocksmith
                    oppositelocksmith commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Yes, the clocking orientation is the next bullet point. I’ve hot mine at 10 o’clock to clear the frame and the starter.

                • #25
                  Logging set up last night.

                  I pulled out an old laptop and put the logging software on it. A little fiddly, but I'll figure it out.

                  Funny driving around with a digital copilot.

                  Click image for larger version

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                  1973 TR6 – BRG with beige interior, custom LED lighting
                  Hardtop, OD, Rollbar, 15”Koenigs
                  Bored, balanced and polished motor with PI cam, hi-comp head, triple DCOE's
                  Header, custom exhaust, custom alternator, e-fan
                  Lowered, poly suspension, Konis and rear anti roll-bar
                  www.coventrysfinest.blogspot.com

                  Comment

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