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  • A question with no answer?

    Why do the vaxxed need to be protected from the unvaxxed by forcing the unvaxxed to use the vaccine that did not protect the vaxxed in the first place?
    Ralph
    TR250 "Eileen"
    MGB "Merck"
    VW GTI

  • #2
    Because the unvaxed help the virus spread and turn into more contagous and deadly variants. The vaccine DOES protect one from dying.
    Why is it against the law to drive under the influence? My liver, my choice.
    CF1634U+O Pimento/Chestnut
    2nd owner, since 1975
    Now in Fair Oaks, CA

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    • Dave@Moon3
      [email protected] commented
      Editing a comment
      AMEN! (+ at least 5 extra characters)

  • #3
    Originally posted by baws View Post
    The vaccine DOES protect one from dying.
    Why is it against the law to drive under the influence? My liver, my choice.
    That is not quite accurate, thousands have had 'break through' covid and perished from it. For the record, I am vaxxed My choice.

    Ralph
    TR250 "Eileen"
    MGB "Merck"
    VW GTI

    Comment


    • #4
      Originally posted by 46er View Post

      That is not quite accurate, thousands have had 'break through' covid and perished from it. For the record, I am vaxxed My choice.
      You're missing the point my dear friend.
      Hundreds of "thousands" would die from infections of the virus were it not for the mandates for vaccinations, like Polio, Smallpox etc.
      I'm all for "my choice", as long as it does not endanger others and not to just "own the libs".
      CF1634U+O Pimento/Chestnut
      2nd owner, since 1975
      Now in Fair Oaks, CA

      Comment


      • #5
        I had the shots, but if I hadn't for one reason or another, I think I'd have greater peace of mind if I were in a room full of vaccinated people than I would being in a room full of unvaccinated people.
        Driving a 1973 TR6
        Doing ZS carb repairs
        email kencorsaw"at"aol.com

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        • #6
          There are many, many interesting components/slants associated with this *hot* topic. My take (fwiw) is:

          A requirement for a covid vax seems more like the requirement for smallpox, polio, etc. rather than the DUI (or other) freedom of choice equivalent.

          Driving under the influence is a false equivalent in re "choice," because, in theory, a vaccinated person is immune. In other words, to use the same logic, someone could be rendered "immune" to the actions/consequences associated with the outcomes when encountering a drunk driver. (you could strain this even further by suggesting there is some sort of magical "cloaking" device, which could render one unaffected by a drunk driver...sort of like the whole mask discussion in re covid; there's no such thing, of course).

          I'm in a bit of a unique/bizarre situation. I run rescue duty as an EMT (volunteer). At the same time, I teach EMT classes for the Fire Department (paid part-time employee). In the first instance, I am not *required* to be vaccinated, in the second case, I am. The differences are a bit stark; as a volunteer, vaccination serves to protect me from infection, as an employee, vaccination protects students (and other employees) from me.

          Another conundrum: the local hospitals (we take patients to one of two, depending upon patient choice) require me to get a flu shot every year OR I am required to wear a mask in the ED (fwiw, this is never enforced; they used to put stickers on our hospital badges to indicate we'd rec'd flu shots, but they haven't done that for years...and no one ever checked). There are no such requirements (at this time) for covid. That seems bizarre to me.

          The *real* illogical aspect of this whole deal is the mask mandates. *They* assert on the one hand that the vaccines work, yet on the other hand, they require the vaccinated to wear masks. That just doesn't make sense; both can't be true/necessary and I believe that has led to a lot of this resistance/confusion/etc.

          I understand Ken's point about being in a room full of unvaccinated folks, but if *they* had done a better job of 'splainin' the efficacy of the vax, in theory, Ken wouldn't give it a second thought. But, I *get* it. That's the situation I'm in. When we are dispatched on a call, we (my crew and I) are informed whether or not covid "precautions" (N95 masks, gowns, gloves, eye protection) are "recommended" (note: the decision to fully gown up is left to us, not mandated; and, on every call, we wear surgical masks and gloves). The point is: if my vaccine protects me, I shouldn't need to take all those precautions...but you can bet your ass I do.

          I *get* the choices made by some not to get vaccinated based on religious or health reasons, but I glance askance at those who suggest this is all some sort of government/other conspiracy. If you object because some vax is derived/created using fetal tissue, ok. If you're just wearing tinfoil panties/hats, I'm not there.

          Anyway, the point is, just about anyone can make any argument, pro or con, in re vaccinations/masks/social distancing/whatever, mostly due to the ever-changing guidance/science/social dynamics/whatever. Like most issues these days, such discussions involve passion/emotion/politics/whatever rather than stark data and the allowance for outliers. The anecdotal is always more convenient than the empirical; just seems everything is over-cooked these days, not just this dang covid business.

          I'm vaxxed. I believe it protects me, but I'm still taking precautions in my EMS world (in general, I don't wear a mask or worry about exposure in my "normal" life). I have no strong feelings, one way or the other, about choices others make (ok, other than the tinfoil crowd); I'm just sitting on the sidelines watching the game and hoping none the players get hurt.

          As usual, I rambled on way, way too much. Mea culpa.
          Last edited by tadmcd; 10-14-2021, 03:31 PM.
          "PD" - 1973 Mallard TR6

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          • #7
            I have what is perhaps a "twisted" view of this whole issue. I got my Moderna vaccine on Feb 3 and Mar 3, 2021 - when it first became available here in CT.

            On the one hand I support the right of an individual to get vaccinated or not - they should be able to make the final decision.

            On the other hand, I believe that private property owners - NOT THE GOVERNMENT - should be able to mandate behavior on their property. That means supermarkets can require masks for unvaccinated people, and waive mask requirements for those with the vaccine. This is actually the case throughout Connecticut, where masks are "optional for vaccinated individuals". I agree with that right, provided the government stays out of it and doesn't mandate anything.

            Finally, I have relatives who have failed to get vaccinated. I will not invite them to my house nor will I visit them, because there ARE breakthrough cases, and I don't want to play Russian roulette with the issue. If you don't want the vaccine, that's your right and I support it. If I don't want to be exposed to unvaccinated relatives, that is my right. Sounds like I'm confused, I know, but fundamentally I believe individual rights always trump the "general good" in our society. The Bill of Rights guarantees that.
            1976 TR-6 BRG - CF57239U
            Carbs by Poolboy
            Rear Camber Kit, Rear Hubs by Goodparts
            Gear Reduction Starter by TSI
            Distributor by British Vacuum

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            • #8
              What concerns me is that it has been a political volleyball from the start, which is no surprise. The pharma's were given liability protection by HHS invoking the PREP act in 2020 by requesting approval on an emergency basis, probably because none of pharma would have bothered with development of a vaccine otherwise. FDA approval did not come until August of this year. That leaves those getting a vaccine with no long term trials, exposed with no recourse should something bad happen. Now the mandates begin popping up placing pressure on some people to get the shot with no recourse should they be the unlucky one. These mandates pretty much turn the general population into an unregulated long term trial. Medical mandates have happened in the past, recently for the swine flu, but it was not as extensive as this although an earlier flu pandemic still holds the top number of deaths attributed to it.

              Regarding 'peace of mind'. Would be nice, but who has received the vaccine is not public knowledge.

              One thing is certain, a lot of money is being made by pharma's government contracts. Too bad the ones in the public domain are heavily redacted.
              Ralph
              TR250 "Eileen"
              MGB "Merck"
              VW GTI

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by 46er View Post
                Regarding 'peace of mind'. Would be nice, but who has received the vaccine is not public knowledge.
                .
                Seeing peace of mind in quotes makes me think you are quoting me....hopefully you were aware the situation was hypothetical.
                But here's one thing that is not hypothetical. I have more peace of mind now because I am vaccinated than I did before I was vaccinated...same for my smallpox, tetanus, flu and shingles vaccinations. I'd rather have the shot than the disease and so far so good.
                Driving a 1973 TR6
                Doing ZS carb repairs
                email kencorsaw"at"aol.com

                Comment


                • #10
                  Originally posted by poolboy View Post
                  I'd rather have the shot than the disease and so far so good.
                  Understood, I also received the shots, Moderna, just cleared the FDA today for boosters. But in my situation I could not in good conscience not get it. It is yet to be seen if mandates will move on to booster shots. Got the flu shot yesterday.
                  Ralph
                  TR250 "Eileen"
                  MGB "Merck"
                  VW GTI

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Originally posted by tadmcd View Post
                    The *real* illogical aspect of this whole deal is the mask mandates. *They* assert on the one hand that the vaccines work, yet on the other hand, they require the vaccinated to wear masks. That just doesn't make sense; both can't be true/necessary and I believe that has led to a lot of this resistance/confusion/etc..
                    As I understand it, being vaccinated greatly reduces the probability of getting hospitalized and dying from COVID. But it does not prevent you from catching COVID, and if you're unlucky, getting unpleasant symptoms. And, if you do catch COVID, being vaccinated does not prevent you from transmitting it to others.

                    I believe that is the main argument for masks - they both reduce the probability of the wearer catching and transmitting the virus.

                    Having seen some vaccinated friends get COVID and be unpleasantly sick for a couple of weeks, I personally wish to avoid it. And I would not want to transmit COVID to others. So, though I have had the shots, I really don't mind wearing a mask when in confined public places, or when signs indicate that masks are preferred/recommended.
                    Keith, Huntsville AL, 1971 TR6
                    10.0:1 CR gasflowed head | Weber DCOEs | CP "150hp" Cam | Good Parts Ram-Air induction | Distibutor by Advanced | Lightened flywheel | Phoenix SS Exhaust System | HVDA 5-Speed | Good Parts R200B Diff and CV axles | Good Parts suspension and anti-roll bars | Willwood Calipers and Vented Rotors | Good Parts Dual Brake Master Cylinder | Konig Rewinds | Boyd 15 gal tank | Miata Seats and Mr Mikes covers | Carl Visser dash | Mohair hood | Gas-strut bonnet and boot lift kits

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                    • #12
                      The science nor the virus' actions are political. ~90%+ effective in preventing serious illness or death of a widespread and easily passed pathogen...no brainer, if without any medical or religious considerations.

                      Someone near me who was vaxed and caught it at a home gathering. First thinking allergies, they went and tested. Flu like symptoms, loss of smell, slight cough came on. Isolated for the recommended 10 days and recovered. Some weeks after the event, the person mentioned to me, unsolicited, that they truly believe they would have been in the hospital if they werent vaxed. Sobering feedback from someone who went through the tunnel.
                      Last edited by tr6harris; 10-15-2021, 07:23 PM.
                      '74 TR6 CF13007U aka "Mr. T"
                      Custom Blue (Delft-Like) and New Tan (Formerly Mallard and New Tan)
                      Points, Ballast Bypassed, Bosch Blue Coil, Moss Cobalt Wires, Champion RN12YC plugs.
                      Peaks and tweaks, but the spirit of Original
                      Redlines always.
                      My wife is the Driver, I'm just the Mechanic....

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        The problem is not necessarily the vaccine, but that the messaging and application has been awful.

                        If they'd said from the off that the vaccine made it less likely that you'd die (or get it bad) then that would have helped. (It's also why I got stabbed, but I digress).
                        They said it's a vaccine, not a palliative. It either isn't or it's not a good one. Not dying if you catch it is a much more persuasive argument imo.

                        If they'd said cloth masks are crap, but slightly better than nothing that would have helped. Not you have to wear it "for your safety and the safety of others".
                        If they weren't idiots about the application that would also have helped. Giving me a blue mask to wear over my (real, fitted, 3M) N95 at a hospital - and I don't mean one of the ones with a hole in it or a Chinesium KN95 - because "you have to wear a mask" does nothing for credibility or efficacy.

                        If they had tried education rather than by fiat, that would have helped. No one likes being forced to do something they are on the fence about.
                        Most can be talked into it with a reasoned argument. Get jabbed or don't work isn't reasoned - it pisses people off.

                        Religious exemptions are why we have measles outbreaks in New York. No getting round that without some draconian - and unpopular - changes, so accept some aren't going to get it no matter what.
                        I'm really not that interesting...

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                        • #14
                          I hope those not vaxed will at least consider researching Vitamin D3 and consider the data on its potential immune system affects indicated on those infected.
                          '74 TR6 CF13007U aka "Mr. T"
                          Custom Blue (Delft-Like) and New Tan (Formerly Mallard and New Tan)
                          Points, Ballast Bypassed, Bosch Blue Coil, Moss Cobalt Wires, Champion RN12YC plugs.
                          Peaks and tweaks, but the spirit of Original
                          Redlines always.
                          My wife is the Driver, I'm just the Mechanic....

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            The only difference between a KN95 mask and an N95 mask is the manner of wearing it. A KN95 has elastic behind the ears. N95 elastics go behind the head, Which ever provides the best fit for the individual is the better choice. (Either can be made anywhere, or counterfeited by unscrupulous people anywhere.)

                            Also the government mandates behavior on private property almost ubiquitously. You have to wear seat belts, license/permit landfills/incinerators/gun ranges/brothels/etc., you can't smoke indoors in public buildings, etc. Like it or not, there is a societal reason for some behaviors to not be freely expressed without limits regardless of place. That includes sending your kids to school unvaccinated, or going certain places yourself likewise.

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