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  • Originally posted by skootch13 View Post

    http://www.74tr6.com/clutchreplacement.htm

    i am pretty sure that TRharris is the member who regularly says which TO bearing needs the spring and which one does not. Maybe PM him?
    Bobby D's. article is about the problems using the B&B pressure plate (which looks like it has the bent fingers in his article) and the Gunst bearing. I have the Sachs pressure plate and Gunst bearing. My pressure plate and Gunst bearing came with the TRF magic kit that I bought over 10 years ago. It looks like they are now selling the magic kit with the Koyo bearing (but not sure which PP). I'll be calling TRF soon! I'll PM TRharris too. Thanks Aaron.

    Edit: and I have NEVER had any squealing like Bobby reported in his article.You would think though with all the wear on my pressure plate fingers that there would be some squealing between the bearing and the fingers.
    Last edited by safire6; 09-14-2020, 01:39 PM. Reason: added a sentence
    1972 TR6, CC75294L
    W58 5 speed / Eaglegate conversion
    Goodparts rear hubs, trailing arm brackets and steering rack mounts, Prestige Autowood Hawaiian koa wood dash panel

    Comment


    • I called TRF this afternoon and spoke with Dan. I asked if he knew what TO bearing was in the magic clutch kit they sold 10-12 years ago. After about a 10 second pause he said "the Koyo bearing". I'm pretty darn sure it was the Gunst bearing along with the Sachs MF215 pressure plate. He said the current magic kits have a Koyo bearing and the Sach's PP. I see that Ricard Good sells a 'standard duty clutch kit consisting of the Koyo bearing, a Borg and Beck PP and an unknown friction disk. Does anyone here have any experience with RG's "standard" kit? (He also sells a heavy duty one with more clamping force.)

      I took the Sach's PP and Eaglegate friction disk off the flywheel tonight and snapped some pics. The small broken piece I found at the bottom of the bell housing was from the disc. I cut a finger off the PP with a dremel tool and measured the wear (just because). The un-worn thickness measured .095" with a dial caliper and it measured .060" where it was worn down. .035" wear after only approx 13,000 miles.

      What PP and TO bearing combinations are you using and are not having any issues? (I realize this is probably not the right forum for these questions.)

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      1972 TR6, CC75294L
      W58 5 speed / Eaglegate conversion
      Goodparts rear hubs, trailing arm brackets and steering rack mounts, Prestige Autowood Hawaiian koa wood dash panel

      Comment


      • , Gunst on the left...Koyo on the right
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        Driving a 1973 TR6
        Doing ZS carb repairs
        email kencorsaw"at"aol.com

        Comment


        • safire6
          safire6 commented
          Editing a comment
          Thanks PB. Just by "feel" does the Koyo spin pretty easily compared to the Gunst, or does the Gunst seem to spin more freely? I assume that both are "used" and have some miles on them?

        • poolboy
          poolboy commented
          Editing a comment
          In that picture the Gunst was new and the Koyo had some miles on it, Steve.
          To me the Koyo being much heavier and larger diameter, seemed to have the momentum advantage to spin for a longer period of time, but I don't recall my impression of the difference if any in the effort to get it started.
          I returned the Gunst to BPNW so I can't go test that now.
          I do have a new Koyo that I just compared to the "broken in" Koyo in the picture and the new one does require a little more force to get spinning and doesn't spin for as long as the "broken in" one.
          I don't guess that much help answering your question though.

        • safire6
          safire6 commented
          Editing a comment
          Thanks for taking the time to do the comparison between the new and old Koyo PB. I wasn't sure if the pics you sent were recent or older so I was hoping you still had both on hand. Makes sense about the larger mass Koyo spinning longer than the Gunst. Correspondingly, it should take more effort/force to get it spinning also.

      • Originally posted by safire6 View Post
        I called TRF this afternoon and spoke with Dan. I asked if he knew what TO bearing was in the magic clutch kit they sold 10-12 years ago. After about a 10 second pause he said "the Koyo bearing". I'm pretty darn sure it was the Gunst bearing along with the Sachs MF215 pressure plate. He said the current magic kits have a Koyo bearing and the Sach's PP. I see that Ricard Good sells a 'standard duty clutch kit consisting of the Koyo bearing, a Borg and Beck PP and an unknown friction disk. Does anyone here have any experience with RG's "standard" kit? (He also sells a heavy duty one with more clamping force.)

        I took the Sach's PP and Eaglegate friction disk off the flywheel tonight and snapped some pics. The small broken piece I found at the bottom of the bell housing was from the disc. I cut a finger off the PP with a dremel tool and measured the wear (just because). The un-worn thickness measured .095" with a dial caliper and it measured .060" where it was worn down. .035" wear after only approx 13,000 miles.

        What PP and TO bearing combinations are you using and are not having any issues? (I realize this is probably not the right forum for these questions.)

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        In one of TRF's catalogues (maybe in a Glovebox issue) a Gunst bearing setup is shown using the preload spring and link. I remember this because it's my drawing! Charles had sent me a Gunst knockoff for evaluation. I compared it to a genuine Gunst and while the knockoff was superior to the standard issue RHP at the time, the knockoff heated up quicker and hotter than the Gunst when subjected to bench testing under load. Shortly after, Mr. Gunst' bearing was no longer available, presumably due to his death. I believe TRF then went with the KOYO as part of the Magic Clutch Kit.

        Preloading the throwout bearing should keep it spinning with the pressure plate, thereby reducing the wear on the fingers. There will always be some wear on the fingers, even when preloading, due to the chaffing action that takes place here during clutch activation. A good deal of this is explained in the buckeyetriumph.org reporting in the "Clutch" section.

        Dick

        Comment


        • Thank you Dick. For me that confirms that I got the Gunst bearing with the TRF magic kit when I bought it 11-12 years ago. What I cannot understand is why would the bearing wear the fingers as bad as it did even though I had it pre-loaded. Maybe I had to much pre-load from the spring. But even with too much pre-load the bearing should be constantly spinning at the same rpm as the fingers on the PP. So why would the bearing wear into the fingers as much as it did? Maybe because I had to much pre-load. On Todd's recommendations, I'm going to take some dimensional measurements on my existing setup and compare them to the stock setup that I still have laying around. I've read the Buckeye clutch articles several times over the years and understand the concepts. Makes sense to me!
          1972 TR6, CC75294L
          W58 5 speed / Eaglegate conversion
          Goodparts rear hubs, trailing arm brackets and steering rack mounts, Prestige Autowood Hawaiian koa wood dash panel

          Comment


          • Originally posted by safire6 View Post
            Thank you Dick. For me that confirms that I got the Gunst bearing with the TRF magic kit when I bought it 11-12 years ago. What I cannot understand is why would the bearing wear the fingers as bad as it did even though I had it pre-loaded. Maybe I had to much pre-load from the spring. But even with too much pre-load the bearing should be constantly spinning at the same rpm as the fingers on the PP. So why would the bearing wear into the fingers as much as it did? Maybe because I had to much pre-load. On Todd's recommendations, I'm going to take some dimensional measurements on my existing setup and compare them to the stock setup that I still have laying around. I've read the Buckeye clutch articles several times over the years and understand the concepts. Makes sense to me!
            Yes, there shouldn't have been this much wear on the fingers from continuous bearing contact. The one thing that comes to mind that could cause this would be if the two were spinning in non-concentric circles. (Something is out of line with the other) As you said, too much preload wouldn't do it... IF they were aligned.
            You'll want to check your pilot bushing while there. If the input shaft sags from a worn bushing, this could contribute to the misalignment. The jury is still out as to whether this bushing should float or be pressed into the flywheel. That's all i can think of for now...

            Dick

            Comment


            • safire6
              safire6 commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks for your thoughts Dick. I do use (and have always used) the two dowel pins that align the center of the bell housing/gearbox to the center of the crankshaft. (So as long as the Eaglegate bell housing was machined correctly I think everything is on center.) I have never had the 'sticky clutch' problem (not with the original gearbox nor with the Eaglegate.W58) that seems to be caused by the mis-aligned axis . I'll check the ID of the pilot bushing tomorrow along with the OD of the gearbox "nose" to see how much clearance there is.

          • Today I took some measurements on the original TR6 4 speed gearbox and also on the Eaglegate/W58 conversion. I could not get into the recess of the flywheel to measure the ID of the bronze pilot bushing with my dial calipers so tomorrow I'll borrow some pin gauges from work and measure the bushing ID and compare it with the gearbox input shaft OD. From several measurements, I determined that on the original gearbox there is approx. .63" of engagement between the pilot bushing and the input shaft of the gearbox. On the Eaglegate/W58 conversion there is approx. .44" of engagement, so about 30% less engagement with the Eaglegate/W58.

            I ordered a new Koyo bearing (and bronze carrier for it) and a Sachs pressure plate from TRF today. Also ordered new driven plate from Mark Canady, the guy that took over the Eaglegate business. Nice guy-I talked with him for some time. I discussed the issues that that some of us had with some of the parts in the early kits and he said he was well aware of the problems and had them taken care of.
            1972 TR6, CC75294L
            W58 5 speed / Eaglegate conversion
            Goodparts rear hubs, trailing arm brackets and steering rack mounts, Prestige Autowood Hawaiian koa wood dash panel

            Comment


            • I measured the ID of the floating bronze pilot bushing in the flywheel: .476". The OD of the input shaft of the W58 gearbox is .472". So .004" clearance. Probably OK?

              I also took measurements on:
              1. My original TR6 4 speed box with the Laycock PP (with worn fingers) and the Green brand TO bearing and steel bearing carrier that was on the car when I bought it 31 years ago.
              2. My W58/Eaglegate conversion using the Sachs MF215 PP with the worn out fingers, Gunst TO bearing and bronze bearing carrier that came with the TRF magic kit.
              3. My W58/Eaglegate conversion using a new Sachs MF215 PP with a new Koyo TO bearing and shorter bronze bearing carrier that just came today from TRF.

              What I wanted to know was how much travel does the TO bearing move from the most rearward position to where it just contacts the fingers on the pressure plate, for all 3 setups. Of course I had to take a lot of measurements (with a dial caliper and straightedge) to be able to calculate the travel. First off I found that the distance from the face of the bell housing (where it bolts to the engine plate) to the surface on the gearbox where rear side of the bearing carrier rests is approx. .15" shorter on the Eaglegate/W58. Secondly I found that the distance from the face of the bell housing to the center-line of the cross shaft is approx. .115" shorter on the Eaglegate/W58.

              On the original 4 speed I calculated the TO bearing traveled approx .33" before the bearing contacted the fingers. Subtract maybe .03" to account for finger wear and the travel is .30" for a 'new' pressure plate.

              On the W58/Eaglegate with the Gunst and worn Sachs PP I calculated the travel is only .06". Subtract about .03" for finger wear and the travel is only .03" !

              On the W58/Eaglegate with the new Koyo and new Sacs PP I calculated the travel is only .075".

              Of course my measurements weren't under the best conditions so I would say that these bearing travel distances could be + or - maybe .03" (or more).

              Not sure how or if this has anything to do with the premature wear I found on the PP with the Gunst bearing, but I suspect somehow it does.


              1972 TR6, CC75294L
              W58 5 speed / Eaglegate conversion
              Goodparts rear hubs, trailing arm brackets and steering rack mounts, Prestige Autowood Hawaiian koa wood dash panel

              Comment


              • Cam Timing....(i.e. recreational math)


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                Cheers,

                Wolf
                76 TR6 CF58170UO (The Lady)
                72 TR6 CC80068UO (The Slut)
                68 TR250 CD4893L (retirement project)

                Comment


                • Good. now let's see the pic with 0.050" at 4 degrees or what ever MR. Good says it's supposed to be.. And don't forget to bend those cam gear bolt tab thingies over.

                  Serious question though. I used the method that Elin shows in his videos. I think it was him. Where you use a plate over the piston and a piston stop. How did you keep the piston from moving when you put in the camshaft and then put on the timing chain?

                  Or did you do that and this is the AFTER pic?
                  1972 Sapphire TR6 #CC84,something

                  1959 Red TR3 (Wife's)

                  Comment


                  • I bet you're glad you got that out of the way, huh,cher.
                    Driving a 1973 TR6
                    Doing ZS carb repairs
                    email kencorsaw"at"aol.com

                    Comment


                    • Wolf76STL
                      Wolf76STL commented
                      Editing a comment
                      True dat, cher. Now on to the top end and other bits. Then it will go into the run up stand.

                  • Originally posted by skootch13 View Post
                    Good. now let's see the pic with 0.050" at 4 degrees or what ever MR. Good says it's supposed to be.. And don't forget to bend those cam gear bolt tab thingies over.

                    Serious question though. I used the method that Elin shows in his videos. I think it was him. Where you use a plate over the piston and a piston stop. How did you keep the piston from moving when you put in the camshaft and then put on the timing chain?

                    Or did you do that and this is the AFTER pic?

                    First thing to note is that Richard doesn't say the cam should be timed at 4 degrees...setting the cam at anything other than "straight up" is an elective. Many people choose to set it at 2 or 4 degrees advanced to give a little better low end torque. Also, as the chain wears and slackens, it will slightly retard the cam. If you elect to set the cam as retarded 2, 3 or 4 degrees, you will have better high rpm torque, thus, an elective by the owner. Goodparts adjustable cam sprocket is a really good way to dial in exactly what you want the cam to do. I was able to get the cam within 1/2 degree of 4 degrees advanced.

                    Also, remember that the cam timing is a two step process. First I found TDC with the chain off. I first used my dial indicator to find TDC, then I checked it with the hard stop method. Once I was certain I had true TDC, I put the dial guage on the #1 intake lifter to go through the degreeing process. I used the intake centerline method (110 for the GP2), then checked the other numbers like duration, etc.

                    I will say that Richards GP2 cam was spot on with it's cam card. I'm happy.

                    Cheers,

                    Kevin
                    76 TR6 CF58170UO (The Lady)
                    72 TR6 CC80068UO (The Slut)
                    68 TR250 CD4893L (retirement project)

                    Comment


                    • hell I probably forgot how I did mine......
                      1972 Sapphire TR6 #CC84,something

                      1959 Red TR3 (Wife's)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by skootch13 View Post
                        Good. now let's see the pic with 0.050" at 4 degrees...
                        Since you asked, here are the pics.

                        Using the hard stop method for finding TDC. Tip: Use a long wrench on the crank as it makes it easy and smooth to creep up on the dial gauge reading
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                        Clockwise rotation yields the piston stopping at 14 degrees BTDC
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                        CCW rotation also had the piston stopping at 14 degrees ATDC (I got lucky)
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                        Remove the piston stop and now 0 on the wheel is true TDC
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                        Overview showing dial gauge at .050 lobe lift and intake opens at 7.5 BTDC (this info was listed on the cam card to yield 4 degrees cam advance).
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                        Dial at .050 lobe lift
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                        Crank at 7.5 BTDC
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                        Cover on and ready for head installation.
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                        Cheers,

                        Wolf
                        Last edited by Wolf76STL; 09-22-2020, 11:14 PM.
                        76 TR6 CF58170UO (The Lady)
                        72 TR6 CC80068UO (The Slut)
                        68 TR250 CD4893L (retirement project)

                        Comment


                        • Thanks Kevin. The best thing about your garage is the lighting. Even with LEDs, I am always working in shadows. Oh well. Good enough.

                          have fun building that 250

                          (PS, pretty sure I just timed mine straight up, with .050 at 4.5 degrees.)
                          1972 Sapphire TR6 #CC84,something

                          1959 Red TR3 (Wife's)

                          Comment


                          • SapphireBlue72
                            SapphireBlue72 commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Yeah, good camera lens, too. Great pics.

                        what did you do to your car today?

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